Welcome to the 21st century, ladies
Late last year, when setting up my new work pension scheme:
Financial advisor, filling in form: So, it’s ‘Miss Catherine Secret…’
CS: Oh, no, I’ve changed my name. I just got married.
FA: Oh, congratulations. What’s your married name then?
CS: Subrosa.
FA: Right, ‘Mrs Catherine…’
CS: Oh no, I’m a Ms actually.
FA, crossing out Mrs and writing Ms, but sounding confused: Ok…
CS: Yeah, I just don’t think my marital status is anyone’s business, really, so I use Ms.
—–
On Wednesday, when finally getting around to changing my name with a mail order company:
From: Cate Subrosa
To: Mail Order Company
Hi,
Please change my name from MISS CATHERINE SECRET to MS CATHERINE SUBROSA.
Many thanks,
Catherine
From: Mail Order Company
To: Cate Subrosa
Dear Miss Secret,
Thank you for your email.
To enable us to assist with your request, could you please provide us with the
following information, this is for security purposes:-
Forename and Surname
Full Postal Address and Telephone Number
Date Of Birth
Can you also advise the reason for your change of name.
Kind regards
Customer Care Advisor
From: Cate Subrosa
To: Mail Order Company
Hi Customer Care Advisor,
Previous name: Miss Catherine Secret
New name: Ms Catherine Subrosa
Address: xxxxx
Phone number: xxxxx
DOB: xxxxx
Reason for change: Marriage
Many thanks,
Catherine
From: Mail Order Company
To: Cate Subrosa
Dear Mrs Subrosa
We congratulate you on your recent marriage.
We have amended your details. Please allow 24 hours for our system to update.
Please be advised that a proportion of our promotional mail is pre-selected,
which may result in promotional mail going with your previous name during
the next 12 weeks.
We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.
Kind regards
Customer Care Advisor
From: Cate Subrosa
To: Mail Order Company
Hi Customer Care Advisor,
Thank you very much. Please note, however, my request of the use of the title MS.
Many thanks,
Catherine
—–
On arriving home from work this evening, I received a letter addressed to Mrs C Subrosa, from the financial advisor, who obviously decided when entering my details into his computer to ignore his own correction, or perhaps just to ignore my request, and use the title he thought most appropriate.
Now I could write a full post about why all women should call themselves Ms, because you shouldn’t be able to tell a woman’s marital status from her title any more than you can a man’s, but as Meg pointed out the other day, it doesn’t really matter what anyone (myself included) thinks you should call yourself. It matters most that others honour your wishes to be called by the title you consider most appropriate for yourself. It’s a question of respect.
But ladies, seriously, at least consider using Ms for me, will you? Because this archaic, sexist system is only going to become obsolete if we insist on changing it ourselves.
Single, married, divorced; taking your husband’s name or keeping your maiden name: your marital status is no more a prospective employer, doctor, or any other stranger’s business than that of your husband or brother.
In the words of Eve Kay,
“Miss and Mrs are marks of the old world, reminders of women’s second-class status as wives-to-be (Miss) or simply wives (Mrs). If you are a woman who doesn’t use Ms – particularly a woman under 30 who has never even thought of it – then ponder this: how do you want to present yourself to the world? Are you an appendage or an appendage-in-waiting? Don’t be branded and marked by old-world convention. Let’s kick against those fools at companies such as Atlantic Data. Let’s put two fingers up to employers and bureaucrats who want to define us by our marital status. Choose Miss and you are condemned to childish immaturity. Choose Mrs and be condemned as some guy’s chattel. Choose Ms and you become an adult woman in charge of your whole life.”
Now we just have to work out how to make sure “those fools” honour our wishes.
35 Responses to “Welcome to the 21st century, ladies”
Catherine says:
June 29, 2011 at 1:41 pm
This issue pissed me off so much! Not so much the appendage-to-a-man thing – after all this happens with surnames upon marriage too and I think that if a woman wishes to change her name that’s her choice – just the sheer *lack of respect and understanding* people have for “Ms”. Virtually no company or organisiation bar the DVLA seem to get it. Computer says no. Does not compute. Grrrr!
Bridey says:
July 24, 2011 at 2:36 am
I was probably 9 years old when I first decided to go by the title Ms, and now that I’m married (and kept by surname) I’m always a little offended if I’m called Miss or Mrs. I’ve always thought that Ms would be a lot easier to use for all girls & women, who cares whether we’re married, as you mentioned it’s nobody’s business!
Cate Subrosa says:
July 25, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Sounds like you were one very cool nine-year-old. ;)
Novice Wife says:
September 21, 2011 at 9:44 pm
A-men. It’s hard to tell sometimes if people just aren’t listening when you express your wishes or if they’re just intent on forcing you to do what they think is right. It took us three tries at the marriage license office for them to get our names right because they just couldn’t understand that the hubster was ALSO changing his. Harumph.
agirl says:
September 21, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Um, hello! Are you back?
Cate Subrosa says:
September 22, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Hiiiii. Not exactly. Maybe just the odd feminist rant. Although… it was worth pulling the blog just to get a few more people reading this post. :)
Melissa says:
September 21, 2011 at 11:36 pm
I disagree. Not with the issue of those gentlemen or businesses that aren’t calling you what you wish to be called. People should *always* call you what you wish, without question. It is, as you said, a matter of respect.
I disagree with the idea that I shouldn’t use Mrs. “Choose Mrs and be condemned as some guy’s chattel.” Wow. Really? I just don’t see it that way. I am proud to be Mrs. Ortiz. Maybe that makes me old-fashioned or maybe I am willfully being oppressed in some way, but I love having that as my name and my title. And I’m as independent as they come.
Cate Subrosa says:
September 22, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Well, Meli, you know I respect your right to disagree as much as your right to use whichever title you wish. ;)
But… have you thought about it from the other point of view? What if you *weren’t* married? Would you be happy still being a Miss? How about in another 20 years? How about when you book a hotel room for you and your partner, or you make an appointment to discuss an uplanned pregnancy, or you book your car into the garage? Why would you want those strangers to know your marital status before they’ve ever even met you? You don’t expect to know if a man is married before you’ve ever even met, why should it be different because you’re a woman?
You know I’m as proud to be married as the next woman, I wear my wedding ring, I talk about my husband all the time. But that’s my choice, something you find out about me when you meet me. The ‘title’ field is rarely optional, so as long as Miss and Mrs are still options, women are forced to choose which statement to make about their marital status, a statement that sits alongside what is often the first thing you ever know about a person: her name. And that’s what I think is wrong.
Melissa says:
September 23, 2011 at 6:14 pm
If I was unmarried, I would use Ms. – not because I don’t want people to know if I am married or not, but simply because Miss sounds too young for a 36-year-old. I really have no problem with strangers knowing my marital status. Maybe I’m crazy. ;P
Please know that I do see your point of view, I really do. I also know (I mean, really!) how proud you are to be married.
I am glad we can agree to disagree, as proper friends should.
(seriously, I almost wrote proper mates and then thought better of trying to sound too British… damn BBC…)
Haley says:
September 22, 2011 at 5:24 am
Hi Cate,
I’ve never commented to you before, but I’ve been reading since way back before your marriage, and I wanted to thank you for talking about this! I had never given it any thought, but since hearing your take on it (a while ago), I’ve agreed and now always choose “Ms.” when possible. Just wanted to let you know you’re impacting real people’s lives. :)
Cate Subrosa says:
September 22, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Haley, thank you, that makes me very happy indeed!
Hermione says:
September 22, 2011 at 12:30 pm
I’m with Melissa on this one. I’m proud to be Mrs XXXX – it wouldn’t/doesn’t offend me when companies mail me letters to Miss/Ms or Mrs. I’m not defined by my title.
I ‘just like being’ Mr & Mrs XXXX – it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside for people to know in one phrase that he’s the man I love and plan to be with forever.
Sure there are other ways to say it, but being a wife is such a nice feeling I want everyone to know about it.
Equally if no one ever called me Mrs XXXX it wouldn’t make me any less married to my man… I’d just have to over-emphasis the “my husband & I” phrase in conversation.
Cate Subrosa says:
September 22, 2011 at 12:50 pm
Thanks for your comment, Hermione. I do understand the desire to announce to the world that you are a married woman. But… well, perhaps you might read my reply to Melissa’s comment above.
Hermione says:
September 22, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Perhaps the solution is to give men an option to state their marital status in their title. I’m sure if there were a different title for a married man other than Mr, my husband would have taken it. He’s just as keen as I am to declare his marital status to anyone whose interested. Why shouldn’t we state our marital status (if that’s what we want to do)? Is their a big conspiracy out there that I’m unaware of?
Obviously if you asked to be called something and society/companies/people ignore that then you have a right to be ticked off.
But wearing a wedding ring IS the same as choosing a title. You can see someone across a room and before they’ve opened their mouth you may have spotted their ring and made a judgement about them (the same goes for hairstyle/weight/skin colour etc), if that’s your way of thinking.
The same goes when writing your name on a form/applicatioon – people will judge the name before meeting the person e.g. I have heard of managers decline job applicants because their names sound foreign or too complicated to pronounce – discrimination at its worst.
When I was a Miss I was proud of that status too – it gave me a sense of pride just as much as Mrs does. If people judged me for my title then so be it, maybe its THEIR lack of understanding which makes defining a person by their title idiotic. But perhaps my title doesn’t bother me as much because I don’t judge people on their title – so I assume that people treat me the same *pause for naive eye roll*.
Is it the fact that men don’t have different titles for single and married that bothers you and women do? If that’s the case this is a gender equality issue and not about being upset by people judging you (which is how I originally read your article).
p.s. Good debate by the way :)
Cate Subrosa says:
September 24, 2011 at 1:00 pm
I can’t image men ever accepting a change in the system that suggested that strangers needed to find out more from their title than their sex. I’m sure most men would ask why on earth it might be necessary. No, I don’t think there’s a big conspiracy you’re unaware of, but perhaps more that you’re not inclined to consider (or be bothered by) the history of the convention as much as I am. Women needed to be identified as Miss or Mrs so that people knew whether to defer to their fathers or husbands. Men were known simply as Mr because they were always their own bosses.
My primary concern is not of women being judged or discriminated against, although this is part of it. When a woman’s age and marital status are not expected to be included on a CV or job application form, she will be less likely to be declined an interview because she is considered likely to have children soon. Just because we can’t eliminate (sex) discrimination, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do all that we can to limit it.
No, my primary concern is summarised better in my How To Be a Woman post, it is the broken windows hypothesis. A person’s marital status is quite simply none of a stranger’s business. But women are accepting a situation where they are forced to declare it, where men are not. The results of that declaration might usually be benign, but sometimes they are not. And for those women, in those situations, I believe it is the responsibility of all of us to reject it.
Finally, thank you. I’m enjoying the discussion too.
Melissa says:
September 25, 2011 at 1:09 am
Thanks for writing such an articulate response. I understand your view even more now. Thank you for giving me something to think about. :)
Hermione says:
September 29, 2011 at 1:02 pm
Agreed – this makes things much clearer for me, and I can see you concern. You are quite right in stating that the “history of convention” has never been a deciding factor for me when giving myself a title.
Although I am happy to declare my marital status via my title, I am of course supportive to people who prefer not to.
If a form comes my way which doesn’t give the option of selecting ‘Ms’ I shall ask why? (But of course I’ll still end up ticking the ‘Mrs’ box – not because I feel oppressed by convention, but because I rather like being a Mrs, it’s a title I’ve worked hard to achieve). But in the spirit of sisterhood, we must make the the options available to other women/future generations etc.
Abby C. says:
September 28, 2011 at 2:21 pm
What a wonderful article! I had always decided I was going to take my husband’s last name when we got married (only a few months now!) and it never gave me any particular identity issues. It was an easy decision for me. However, deciding whether to use Ms. or Mrs. was much, much harder for me, even though (on the surface) it seems a more esoteric issue.
Thank you for putting into words what I was not clearly able to articulate. I think I just had my decision pretty solidified – I’ll be going with Ms. Hislastname, although I am very happy to be getting married, and I plan on wearing my engagement+wedding ring every day.
For the record, my own mother kept her maiden name but went by Mrs. when she got married in 1980 – and it was even more uncommon then than it is now. My brother and I, rather than having given middle names, have her maiden name as our middle name and our father’s family name as our last. Growing up, people frequently assumed my parents were divorced, but it didn’t emotionally affect me – only slightly annoyed me that I had to correct strangers so often. Actually, I remember being rather proud of my mother.
Remy says:
September 28, 2011 at 10:07 pm
My mother did not change her name when she married my father; they are still married and have two grown children. I have my mother’s last name as my middle name. I remember overhearing her tell her first-grade class that she was a “Ms.” when they called her “Mrs.”, and then have a 6-year-old-appropriate conversation about how one can’t tell from a man’s title whether he is married.
With my parents having different last names and my father having a traditionally-female first name, plenty of classmates (and perhaps their parents) were surprised to learn that they weren’t a lesbian couple. :)
My sweetie and I (who ARE a lesbian(ish) couple!) will be keeping our own names as individuals, but we plan to hyphenate the last names of our future children.
Novice Wife says:
September 29, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Had to write again because I came across this article about how French feminists are trying to get rid of the “mademoiselle” title for exactly the same reason you articulate: http://www.npr.org/2011/09/29/140931817/french-feminists-say-non-to-mademoiselle
Also, thought it was super interesting that the Scandinavians, Germans, and Spanish have all gotten rid of their “Miss” equivalents.
Cate Subrosa says:
October 1, 2011 at 11:22 am
Thank you for sharing that. I can’t remember whether it was before or after I originally wrote this that I heard about this campaign to do away with ‘Mademoiselle’ (which definitely pre-dates that article by the way). I think it will be easier for the French as it is commonplace to address a woman as ‘Madame’ regardless or her marital status (in much a similar way as an American might say ‘Maam’), so it doesn’t have the same ‘married woman’ meaning that Mrs has.
Cate Subrosa says:
October 1, 2011 at 11:23 am
Oops, forgot to say, very interesting about the Scandinavians, German and Spanish. I had no idea about that but it gives me hope for the rest of us!
Sally says:
October 1, 2011 at 3:29 pm
This entire discussion is so interesting to me, because in Sweden, we don’t use titles at all anymore. I called all my teachers by their first names and so on. We used to have informal and formal you (like tú and usted in Spanish, and probably a lot of other languages as well) but then in 1968 there was a “you-reform”, and today some older people will be offended if, for example, waitresses adress them with the formal you. It’s seen as a question of equality.
So not only don’t we use Miss (we have it, we just don’t use it), we don’t use Mrs, Ms or Mr either. I think the only person I know who still uses these titles is my grandmother, who when she sends me birthday cards adresses them “Miss Sally XXX”.
Nicole says:
September 30, 2011 at 3:58 am
When I first started working, I asked to go by Ms. instead of Miss (which kind of scandalized that small town school). When the secretary asked me why I said “I don’t think my identity should be labeled by my legal relationship to a man.” She raised one eyebrow, wrote down Ms. and made sure my door label was correct. The assistant principal once tried to give me a hard time about going by “Ms.” and she did another eyebrow raise and he shut right up.
Nicole says:
September 30, 2011 at 4:12 am
P.S. I am getting married in June and I will still prefer Ms. for the same reason. One of my students once told me “It’s so hard to keep all this stuff straight! She’s a Miss! She’s a Mrs! Who cares already? Can’t they make it easier? Who comes up with this stuff?” (While I totally understand why some people do care, I kind of thought this kid was a genius.)
Cate Subrosa says:
October 1, 2011 at 11:24 am
I love how kids always see through such crap in a way adults so often can’t. ;)
Aubergine says:
September 30, 2011 at 11:46 am
Nice to see you back, even if it’s only sort-of. :)
I would really like to see Ms become the default female title. I think society has outgrown Miss.
Having said that, if some women want to use Mrs I think that should be their choice to make.
I personally use Ms Husband’slastname. I wanted to either keep my surname with Mrs or use my husband’s with Ms. I didn’t want to have the same name as my mother-in-law or her mother-in-law but I did want my husband and I to have the same name and as my surname is very French and impossible to pronounce let alone spell, it pretty much came down to practicality.
Having said all that; two years down the line and I haven’t actually got round to changing everything yet so I still use both on a daily basis.
Cate Subrosa says:
October 1, 2011 at 11:29 am
Hooray! It’s very exciting to me to hear from another Ms Hislastname, as I’ve never met one. When I was engaged I felt like I had to choose between going the traditional (and seen as romantic) route and becoming Mrs Hislastname or keeping my Ms, which meant keeping my name. For me the deciding factor was that I wanted to have the same name as my children (and we didn’t want to hyphenate) so I decided to change my name, but did so much more comfortably when I realised I could still be a Ms, even if no one I knew had ever done this themselves. It makes me happy to see that I’m not alone after all!
Katie Mae says:
October 1, 2011 at 4:44 pm
I also decided to be Ms. Hislast – I changed my name because I like the way it looks and sounds, whereas my birth name is very, VERY common, but I chose to be Ms. instead of Mrs. for a variety of important reasons, most of which you’ve covered above.
It’s been tough. Even my family and close friends have a hard time accepting it, and we get a lot of personal mail to Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast from people who should know better. It hurts that they don’t respect my choice.
Analise says:
October 28, 2011 at 5:47 pm
Hi!
I just re-discovered your blog through an APW link, and I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for offering your experiences and sharing your thoughts with anyone listening. Thank you for speaking up.
I don’t know when it happened, but sometime over the last year I started going by “Ms.” instead of “Miss.” At the time, it was an unconscious shift, rather than an overt political move to reclaim my privacy regarding marital status or to make a feminist statement. But I realized, in re-reading this and the excellent discussions at APW about taking your partner’s name (or not), that it may not have been exactly conscious but it was deliberate. Reading these and others’ arguments about why the antiquated Miss/Mrs. system needs to be re-thought had planted the seeds in my brain, and the next time I purchased something online my mouse drifted over and I clicked “Ms.”
I liked how it felt.
I like how it feels now, as I routinely claim this title — feminine, but undefined — and utilize it, consciously, with pride and gratitude for the fights that have been and continue to be fought (as above) so that I could have this option.
So: thanks. It may be tempting to think that you’re “just” writing a blog, but people are reading. You never know whose day (or life!) might be changed by something you’ve written.
Jacqui says:
November 2, 2011 at 11:20 am
Hello Cate, I wanted to let you know that the originalof this post inspired me to start using Ms rather than Miss in daily life. I have been reading your blogs for years now and love your writing, particularly on feminist issues. I get so frustrated with friends that think there is no need for feminism now we can choose career paths and when/if to have children… There is so much inequality still. Thanks for sharing so much over the years – I miss your posts but totally respect your decision to be more private!
Jacqui
AshleY says:
November 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm
I just have to say first off that I agree no man, woman, company,or organization for that matter deserves to know my marital status upon the simple request of my name. As such I believe it is a title I shall choose to use from here on out as no one would ever know if a man was married upon hearing his name alone. I would however like to add that I can not wait till the day that I am married and get to change my name to his even without the Mrs. I however am quite offended that you say by using the title of Mrs. that I am becoming some man’s chattle for mutliple reasons. For one if that’s the case whether I use the title or not it still implies that by simply being married I have become as you put an “apendage.” I do not think that is the case at all, also I feel that my marriage is a wholey a partnership title or no title and damn it if I am a right leg he is the left and if so we are happy to be legs and have chosen to be so. I again agree with your overall decision and wish to make it my own but maybe you could word your choice a little better.
AshleY says:
November 2, 2011 at 2:59 pm
Went back and re-read the post and realise that the part about appendages and chattle weren’t actually you words and now I feel a little silly spouting off on you like that. Never the less I still find the usuage of those words offensive and hope my post brings about interesting conversation.
Jennifer says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:18 pm
I have been a Ms since marrying 36 years ago. In the early days it was a struggle to get organisations to accept my choice but more recently, I have found that there is more acceptance.
However, how do I get the same acceptance from friends and family? More than 30 of the Christmas cards received recently came addressed to Mr & Mrs Hisinitial Our surname.
I correct these people as gently as I can, saying: ‘if you are sending me Christmas wishes, please remember my name is Ms not Mrs’ but my husband says people don’t understand and it is rude to insist. The whole thing makes me so mad that I’ve started to dread Christmas.
Any ideas?